No Cell Power

I received this helpful letter June 23, 2009. It was sent to me by Loni at Pool Emporium. Pool Emporium is a warranty station for Hayward/Goldline controls. With Loni's permission, I am passing this information along to you.

Loni can be contacted at:

Pool Emporium Inc
Servicing Brevard County, Florida
www.PoolEmporium.com

I stumbled across this thread and followed the one to Gardenweb. thought I'd stick in my two cents... We have been a warranty station for Goldline Controls (now owned by Hayward Pool Products) for several years. We've seen and replaced MANY of these boards over the years, and yes, this is the most common error/failure for the Aqua Logics both IN and OUT of warranty, in our experience as well.

Until days ago, we were not aware of this "fix", and I'll bet that 99.9% of their other warranty stations are not aware of it either. While highly unlikely, it IS remotely possible that even Goldine doesn't know about this fix! Someone just brought it to my attention, and I can't see where anyone posted a fix for this before navyet wrote that simple paragraph, in March, and darentx did the rest on 05/03/09, which is also the day his domain was created. I found just a few references to conversation regarding the error going back to 2007. These units were introduced in 2003. DARENTX: YOU NEED TO PUT A PAYPAL DONATION LINK ON YOUR SITE, and navyet deserves half! I know these grateful people would like to thank you properly for your generosity in sharing this information, as well as the time and expense you've gone to in order to document and post it.

People! Please don't think your local repair techs are hoodwinking you! Granted, some are from what I read, and some of the stories I hear when we're the company they call weeks later when the first guy is still scratching his head! But Goldline doesn't have us troubleshoot and fix the boards, nor do they train us on such. Nor do they make us privy to any company confidential info, if any does exist on this subject. Nor are they obligated to do so. We replace the defective part - period.

The warranty: Units are warrantied to the original purchaser only. Units purchased prior to January 1, 2008 came with a 1 year labor warranty, and a 5-year pro-rated warranty (manufacturer's defects); the first 3 years in full, and in years 4 and 5 you pay 60% of the list price. Goldline discontinued the Aqua Logics in 2008, and came out with the Pro Logics. Units purchased after 01/01/08 only have the 3 year warranty (and first year labor). The last board revision for the Aqua Logics was 2.66. This is still the revision board they are currently shipping, and have been for the last 12 months or more. Replacement parts carry a one year warranty, then it reverts to the remainder of the original warranty. The new Pro Logics have a Sense and Dispense Option that can be added for around a grand. It tests and controls the pH and chlorine levels and comes with a one year warranty. In most cases, ALL Goldline accessory products (remotes, valves, etc.) only have a one year warranty. Haven't seen the Sense and Dispense installed in the field yet.

The board: As MikethePoolGuy pointed out, the list on these boards is currently 712.80. At 60%, you should only (yeah, I know) be charged 427.68 for the board, if they are a warranty station AND performing the repair for you. Otherwise, it's a free country of supply and demand, and you take your chances should a warranty situation arise down the road. Just make sure that you aren't buying old stock. The software is on the motherboard. Features are added, improvements made. Don't trade one nightmare for another. Also, derektx's board is an older board, so yours may not look exactly like his. Probably more improvements. If you try this fix while you are still within your first 3 years, to save the service call, you will likely void your warranty. Do so at your own risk. And if the board fails later, still within it's first 3 years for the same or another reason, they'd be within their rights to deny the claim because you tampered with the board. Same with any other part you repair yourself.

Our experience is that we don't often have to replace the board for this error more than once, so it can't be just a bad design or the boards would keep blowing when we replace them. And if they had, I'm sure Goldline would have cut their losses and made the fix, after they started flooding in under warranty.

Please don't confuse this error with a CELL POWER ERROR. Hate to see someone tamper with the board and void their warranty, for this minor misunderstanding.

The flow switch: We can't buy a flow switch for 40-50.00 (or 80 or 90 or ...) wholesale, so make sure of what you are buying first. Also know that there was a POTENTIALLY defective flow switch out there in 2003 and prior. Although Goldline did not introduce the Aqua Logics until 2003, they've been producing the Aqua Rites since 1994 (chlorination only, no controls). They use the same flow switch. Goldline does not swap out our older parts for newer versions. We rotate stock. Active warranty stations should have current stock. Beware of lower prices! Almost all Goldline Controls replacement parts have a date code. The first 2 digits are the year of manufacture, the next two the month. Same with the serial numbers on your cells and control boxes (after the 5A, 5E, 5L, 3L, and 3E). Goldline Controls warrantied these flow switches if they failed in the field, and were of the specified lot. The flow switch is 170.64 (102.38 if you fall into the 40% warranty category). The design was changed recently (12 months maybe?), for the first time in a few years, but I'm not privy to exactly why. I would not suggest bypassing the flow switch unless you aren't going to make use of your warranty - EVER. Or at the very least the flow switch and cell warranty. Were I to walk onto a jobsite and find a bad cell and a bypassed flow switch, I would call the local field technical manager who in all likelihood would deny the claim, as they have every right to do under the circumstances. The purpose of the flow switch is to make sure there is enough water flowing through the cell before it allows electricity to be sent TO the cell. Otherwise cell damage can occur.

The cells: Over acid-washing will prematurely kill a cell. Take it off every 2-3 weeks, spray it out with a high pressure nozzle and hold it up to the sun. You should be able to see through it so clearly that all you see are the plates hanging down. If not, try to knock the calcium/scale deposits off (while they are soft, which they will be if you check more often) with something wooden or plastic - NO METAL - like a popsicle stick.These cells are PRICEY! Protect your investment! If you can't knock off the deposits, use a 4 parts water to 1 part acid mix. If it's still bubbling after 30 minutes, 3:1, never stronger than 2:1, and only when necessary (preventative maintenance...). And never just set it in a bucket of even the mildest acid solution if you can't check on it FREQUENTLY. If you never find scale inside the cell, start stretching out the time between checking. You'll figure out how often you need to check yours. This new cleaning method was released by Goldline, based on their examination of returned cells. For a while there, they were paying for the cells to be returned to them EVEN IF THEY WERE COMPLETELY OUT OF WARRANTY, just so they could learn from them and improve them. If all they were truly after was selling replacement parts, wouldn't it benefit their pockets to keep this information to themselves?? Goldine now offers a cell with a 3-year warranty. You can choose this replacement if you are over 3 years old. The cells are the same, it's just like buying an extended warranty. If you are between years 3 and 5, it's only an additional 75.00.

There are retail test stations available now at some chains (like Pinch-A-Penny and Leslie's). If you bring them a clean cell, they will put it on the test station for you at no charge and give you a pass/fail answer. This error isn't usually indicative of a bad cell.

Another thing to consider is replacement cells down the road. Until the last couple of years, the only cell available was the T-CELL-15. Then they had added the T-CELL-5 (now discontinued). Now there is also a 3 and a 9. Remember that if you had a 15, and go down to a 3, theoretically, the cell would have to work 5x harder to do the same job. It may shave time off the life expectancy, to save a few bucks. It also won't do the job right if your software isn't one of the newer versions that can be set to recognize cells other than a 15. These smaller cells were made for very small pools.

The transformer: Don't bother. We've only had one fail, and I'm pretty sure that was in an Aqua Rite, not an Aqua Logic.

The wires/rectifiers: Wouldn't waste my time here either, other than checking for potential arcing. Don't think we've ever had a bad one of these either.

If there's a burn mark on the back of K1, that's the problem.

Do-It-Yourselfers who choose replacing the board and doing it themselves: Make sure you write down all the programming before you replace the board, so you can program the new board exactly the same. Start in the Configuration menu or it will get ugly.

Please be aware that as warranty stations we are expected to keep a supply of parts on hand to perform repairs for units that are both in and out of warranty. Parts we replace under full warranty must be returned to the factory. They ship us a replacement part. IF THEY ARE NOT RETURNED, WE MUST PAY FOR THESE PARTS. Parts that are covered under a partial warranty are to be held for 30 days for inspection by our local reps, if requested. Please note that WE DO NOT MAKE ANY PROFIT WHATSOEVER on the parts that are warrantied at 40%. Also note that if you choose to pay by credit card, we are actually PAYING FOR part of this board FOR you - whatever our processing fees are on the transaction (usually about 3%). And as part of our duties as a warranty station we have to file claims, track payments, ship and receive. Heck, we even had to buy a special label printer! We aren't getting as rich from this as you think. At least WE'RE not. Heck, we've even fixed A LOT of them over the phone, saving the customer a service call. Granted, we're rare, but we aren't a non-profit! Taking the time to do this means we can't do something else we COULD get paid for.

Replacing one of these boards is not a 10 minute deal. However, if someone knows what they are doing, it shouldn't take more than an hour to complete the repair, even with some fancy programming. These controllers are capable of so much more than homeowners realize - they can control anything that's wired to an available relay whether it's related to the pool or not, and even put it on a timer, if desired. The chlorinator is actually an OPTION. I've never seen one without the option, but most board issues are related to the chlorinator side. I have never charged more than an hour of labor, unless they had other issues I had to resolve first (like a low flow rate or clean the cell) and all told it pushed them over the hour. We charge a one hour minimum and we pro-rate into 15 minute increments after the first hour. Our labor charges range from 65.00 to 75.00, depending on where you live (locally, of course). We've never charged a customer for more than one service call. We stock parts, as painful as it is - just like MikeThePoolGuy said. Only (this bears repeating) we don't make a profit on the price of the part unless the unit is COMPLETELY out of warranty. And as a good warranty station, you'll know what part has likely failed by the symptoms.

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a recall. Recalls usually only address safety issues. This isn't a safety issue. If you read the warranty, it (as all) states "free of defects in materials and workmanship" or "manufacturers defects". If it IS a defect, it's covered under the terms of the warranty. The warranty you agreed to abide by at the time of purchase. Manufacturers improve things all the time. They couldn't put the money into research and development if they had to go to the expense of updating everybodys stuff every time they make a change or improvement. And you surely would be paying a heck of a lot more for the original if that were the case. I've never heard of Microsoft giving out free new operating systems (aside from in Beta). And if Windows isn't flawed, I don't know what is!! If I'm mistaken, please let me know. I'd love to turn in an old set of Windows 3.1 diskettes for another copy of Windows XP, or save it for the new Windows 7 when it is released. I'm sure no malice was intended by Goldline. And as many units as are out there in the field - they're not all failing with this error. It isn't a time bomb that goes off after the 3 years are up. We've replaced way more IN warranty than OUT.

No, I don't work for Hayward and I'm not trying to "defend" them. I just call 'em all like I see them, and I try to see things from both sides. If I didn't, we wouldn't be a warranty station. Hope someone finds this information helpful. Hate to think I wasted all this time!

No Cell Power

Sunday, May 3, 2009

No Cell Power on Hayward Aqualogic

Step 1: Turn off the power

Step 2: Remove the cover

Step 3: Remove the display unit

Step 4: Locate the K1 element

Step 5: Remove the main board

Step 6: Repair the joint

Step 7: Put it all back

Saturday, May 2, 2009

A Letter From A Hayward/Goldline Warranty Station